mega 0 Report post Posted September 3, 2005 Hello... ader sesaper tak kat luar sana yang boley tolong i....Apsal yer internet i sekarang ni kan.... rajin sangat kuar word " Explorer has Caused an error in Kernell 32 DLL "?????Yang sakit hatinye bila dia kuar benda alah tu.... PC mesti hang, tekan sana tekan sini... langsung tak leh..... kadang2 tekan Ctrl+Alt+Del pun tak makan saman..... bila dah kuar dan jadi lagu tu... kadang2 terpaksa shutdown PC dgn cara tak bermoral Sakit hati ooooo...... Tolong yer sesape yang tahu.-M.E.G.A- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
electroboy 3 Report post Posted September 3, 2005 kernel 32 error? personally aku reformat dan reinstall je windows kalau nampak perkataan kernel 32 corrupt.maybe disebabkan oleh serangan spyware? so gunala antispyware/antivirus/firewall dan lain2 yg ntah berapa kali dibincagkan di sini, ok.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mega 0 Report post Posted September 3, 2005 kernel 32 error? personally aku reformat dan reinstall je windows kalau nampak perkataan kernel 32 corrupt.maybe disebabkan oleh serangan spyware? so gunala antispyware/antivirus/firewall dan lain2 yg ntah berapa kali dibincagkan di sini, ok.... Hai Electroboy....I dah install Norton Antivirus, antispyware lagi.....tapi still kuar jugak arrr... lagi bagus tu.... kadang2 dia terus restart sendiri.... aduiii.... paling sakit ati tengah type assignment tba2 kuar benda tu....nak save terus hang... dan restart sendiri... huuuhhuuu........... Dahla tak pandai nak solve benda2 cmni.... byk lak prob dia...Camner erk?-M.E.G.A- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joetbg_x 0 Report post Posted September 3, 2005 apa nama antispyware ko pakai tu?cuba scan dlm safe mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
civ3 9 Report post Posted September 3, 2005 try buat system restore..try repair windows guna recovery cd... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mega 0 Report post Posted September 3, 2005 apa nama antispyware ko pakai tu?cuba scan dlm safe mode.←Antispyware = Ad Aware SE personal (tu pun bf i ajar cmner nak download)Antivirus = Norton Safe mode sumer dah try.... lagi bagus pastu dia keluar "Cmesys has caused an error in GTOOLS.DLL..........Cmesys will now close. If u continue to xperience problem try restarting ur computer" tapi click ok tak leh lak...terus hang...Aduiiii...... tensyen laa -M.E.G.A- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mega 0 Report post Posted September 3, 2005 try buat system restore..try repair windows guna recovery cd...←System restore? Recovery cd? erm... err kena research dulu la camni cmner nak buat.... i bukan pandai sangat pulak tu... takpe2 i try dulu cmner nak buat tu... thanks....yer-M.E.G.A- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joetbg_x 0 Report post Posted September 3, 2005 (edited) Cmesys tu salah satu komponen Gator Adware. kalau pakai 1 jek antispyware mmg tak cukup. kena pakai 2 sekurang²nya. rekomen aku pakai, Microsoft Antispyware skali, http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/s...re/default.mspxatau Spyware Doctor, http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor/ko pakai Norton? aku rekomen ko pakai a-squared Free skali:http://www.emsisoft.com/en/software/download/http://download3.emsisoft.com/a2freesetup.exe& pastikan semuanya dah update termasuk la Windows.. Edited September 3, 2005 by joetbg_x Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TonikCapGajah2013 175 Report post Posted September 3, 2005 apa kata ko minta tolong bf nko buat.kalau tak dapat gak, datang balik sinik Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gengstapo 0 Report post Posted September 3, 2005 apa kata ko minta tolong bf nko buat.kalau tak dapat gak, datang balik sinik←kui.. kui.. kuiiayat power ka nih?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mega 0 Report post Posted September 4, 2005 Cmesys tu salah satu komponen Gator Adware. kalau pakai 1 jek antispyware mmg tak cukup. kena pakai 2 sekurang²nya. rekomen aku pakai, Microsoft Antispyware skali, http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/s...re/default.mspxatau Spyware Doctor, http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor/ko pakai Norton? aku rekomen ko pakai a-squared Free skali:http://www.emsisoft.com/en/software/download/http://download3.emsisoft.com/a2freesetup.exe& pastikan semuanya dah update termasuk la Windows..←Erm i rasa i ada masalah lah ari tu nak download Microsoft Antispyware tuh.... dia kata "Internet Xplorer 6 or greater needs to be installed for this installation to continue. The Wizard was interrupted before Microsoft Antispyware could be complete install. Ur system has not been modified. To complete installation at another time, plse run setup again...bla..bla..bla.."Camtulah bunyinyer.... err.... pening pala pulak benda mcmni..... so skrg ni kena upgrade kan i punya internet explorer dgn windows ke aper?Tolong yer.... betul2 tak tau ni.... Thanks bebanyak yer......-M.E.G.A- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mega 0 Report post Posted September 4, 2005 apa kata ko minta tolong bf nko buat.kalau tak dapat gak, datang balik sinik← Err.... OngBok.... errr...I ingat tak mau tanya dia sbb konon2nyer nak tunjuk pandai la sikit kat dia...konon2nyer....leh solve prob sendiri tanpa tanyer dia...heheehee Alaaa....tolong ler org..... selalu dia jer nak ek dgn org.... ingat nak tunjuk ek lak kat dia tu.... Plse2 plse..........-M.E.G.A- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joetbg_x 0 Report post Posted September 4, 2005 kalau tak dpt pakai MS Antispyware tu, pakai Spybot S&D je la:http://www.safer-networking.org/en/index.htmlp/s: takkan ko pakai IE5 lagi kot?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
isfann 0 Report post Posted September 4, 2005 dia pakai win ME tu.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
imad 0 Report post Posted September 4, 2005 tu la psl aku rase mega pakai win me kot. mase aku pakai me dulu memacam prob klua. pastu aku upgrade trus ke 2k ilang dah sume prob. siot tol win me... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
isfann 0 Report post Posted September 4, 2005 win me.... x besh..... upgrade gi win xp ke.... x pun.. pakai win 98 jek...tapi kalu pakai win 98 kang... cian kat mega.. cd driver semua musti dah takda dah tu... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mega 0 Report post Posted September 4, 2005 kalau tak dpt pakai MS Antispyware tu, pakai Spybot S&D je la:http://www.safer-networking.org/en/index.htmlp/s: takkan ko pakai IE5 lagi kot??←Errr.... sori yer...selama ni cuma tau pakai PC jer, tak taulah xplorer dia tahap baper....5 kot, takper2 nanti org upgrade kan dia lah.... err boleh download dari website jer kan??? I dah download Spyboat S&D tu --> harap2 berkesan sbb skrg ni ada tetamu x diundang kat i punyer Task Bar (180 search Assistant Options). er ada org tu kata benda tu...SPYWARE.... Thanks yer-M.E.G.A- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mega 0 Report post Posted September 4, 2005 win me.... x besh..... upgrade gi win xp ke.... x pun.. pakai win 98 jek...tapi kalu pakai win 98 kang... cian kat mega.. cd driver semua musti dah takda dah tu...←Errrr... x per x per.... nanti i tukar ke XP lah... As soon as possible.... Ek yerrr .... -M.E.G.A- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
civ3 9 Report post Posted September 4, 2005 Errrr... x per x per.... nanti i tukar ke XP lah... As soon as possible.... Ek yerrr .... -M.E.G.A- ←upgradekan ke windows xp sp2 yea... dan make sure lepas upgrade ke sp2, anda updatekan sume driver yang berkaitan kepada yang latest punya... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C-Fu 0 Report post Posted September 5, 2005 sila buat step ni kalo nak buang 180solution tu. step die tak panjang, ako je yang taip panjang2.pegi download hijackthis. http://216.180.233.162/~merijn/files/HijackThis.execreate new folder bernama hijackthis dan download ke folder tuh, kat desktop ke.software ni bergune untuk pakar pc check virus ke, spyware ke dalam pc ko. cara dia?lepas download, ko run program tu. pastu scan dan save log. pastu bukak log gune notepad kalo log tu tak di-auto-bukak lepas ko save. copy dan paste SEMUA isi kandungan log tu ke sini.==============ni step2 untuk kuatkan pc ko dengan spybot.first download spybot. http://www.safer-networking.org/en/mirrors/index.htmldownload, UPDATE, pastu scan. fix, pastu restart. pastu scan balik, takut2 ade problem balik. kalau problem tu asyik kluar balik, sila pos log hijackthis.lepas dah update semua, bukak balik spybot. pegi menu mode>advanced mode. kat menu kiri, pegi tools. checkkan semua, so semua setting boleh kite set.then kat menu kiri, pegi spybot>immunize. klik immunize, dan klik enable permanent blocking of bad addresses... dan block all pages silently.pastu gi Tools>IE Tweaks. lock hosts file. kalo nak lock IE start page pon elok gak.pastu gi Tools>Hosts file. add spybot hosts file.pastu gi Tools>Resident. Checkkan option SDHelper.=================================== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mega 0 Report post Posted September 5, 2005 upgradekan ke windows xp sp2 yea... dan make sure lepas upgrade ke sp2, anda updatekan sume driver yang berkaitan kepada yang latest punya... ←Er civ3...Sori lah ketinggalan zaman rupanyer i.... Ada member i kata XP SP2 leceh....diorg kata lg bagus pakai SP1....mana satu best yer Thanks-M.E.G.A- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
civ3 9 Report post Posted September 5, 2005 Er civ3...Sori lah ketinggalan zaman rupanyer i.... Ada member i kata XP SP2 leceh....diorg kata lg bagus pakai SP1....mana satu best yer Thanks-M.E.G.A- ←diorang kata leceh sebab diorang tak tau apa masalah yang akan melanda setelah update ke sp2....seperti yang saya kata sp2 lebih baik dan mempunyai ciri² tambahan daripada sp1...so lepas update ke sp2, make sure just updatekan ke latest driver....sebabnya sp2 ni dah kira seperti windows baru.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
isfann 0 Report post Posted September 5, 2005 ako tetap BESH hehhehe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mega 0 Report post Posted September 5, 2005 (edited) sila buat step ni kalo nak buang 180solution tu. step die tak panjang, ako je yang taip panjang2.pegi download hijackthis. http://216.180.233.162/~merijn/files/HijackThis.execreate new folder bernama hijackthis dan download ke folder tuh, kat desktop ke.software ni bergune untuk pakar pc check virus ke, spyware ke dalam pc ko. cara dia?lepas download, ko run program tu. pastu scan dan save log. pastu bukak log gune notepad kalo log tu tak di-auto-bukak lepas ko save. copy dan paste SEMUA isi kandungan log tu ke sini.C-Fu...Erm i punyer LOGFILE HIJACKTHIS..........Logfile of HijackThis v1.99.1Scan saved at 10:25:21 PM, on 9/5/2005Platform: Windows ME (Win9x 4.90.3000)MSIE: Internet Explorer v5.50 (5.50.4134.0100)Running processes:C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\KERNEL32.DLLC:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\MSGSRV32.EXEC:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\mmtask.tskC:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\MPREXE.EXEC:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\MSTASK.EXEC:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\MDM.EXEC:\PROGRAM FILES\COMMON FILES\SYMANTEC SHARED\CCEVTMGR.EXEC:\PROGRAM FILES\NORTON ANTIVIRUS\ADVTOOLS\NPROTECT.EXEC:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\STIMON.EXEC:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\RESTORE\STMGR.EXEC:\WINDOWS\EXPLORER.EXEC:\WINDOWS\TASKMON.EXEC:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\SYSTRAY.EXEC:\PROGRAM FILES\COMMON FILES\SYMANTEC SHARED\CCAPP.EXEC:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\WMIEXE.EXEC:\PROGRAM FILES\WINAMP3\WINAMPA.EXEC:\PROGRAM FILES\AQUATICA WATERWORLDS\AQ3HELPER.EXEC:\PROGRAM FILES\HP\HP SOFTWARE UPDATE\HPWUSCHD2.EXEC:\PROGRAM FILES\MEDIA GATEWAY\MEDIAGATEWAY.EXEC:\PROGRAM FILES\180SEARCHASSISTANT\SALM.EXEC:\PROGRAM FILES\INTERNET OPTIMIZER\OPTIMIZE.EXEC:\WINDOWS\RunDLL.exeC:\PROGRAM FILES\WINZIP\WZQKPICK.EXEC:\PROGRAM FILES\HP\DIGITAL IMAGING\BIN\HPQTRA08.EXEC:\PROGRAM FILES\INTERNET EXPLORER\IEXPLORE.EXEjapC:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\TAPISRV.EXEC:\PROGRAM FILES\HP\DIGITAL IMAGING\BIN\HPQGALRY.EXEC:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\HPZIPM12.EXEC:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\SPOOL32.EXEC:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\DDHELP.EXEC:\PROGRAM FILES\YAHOO!\MESSENGER\YPAGER.EXEC:\MY DOCUMENTS\HIJACKTHIS.EXER1 - HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Search Bar = http://us.rd.yahoo.com/customize/ycomp_adb.../search/ie.htmlR1 - HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Search Page = http://us.rd.yahoo.com/customize/ycomp_adb...//www.yahoo.comR1 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Default_Search_URL = http://red.clientapps.yahoo.com/customize/...//www.yahoo.comR1 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Search Bar = http://red.clientapps.yahoo.com/customize/...rch/search.htmlR1 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Search Page = http://red.clientapps.yahoo.com/customize/...//www.yahoo.comR1 - HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\SearchURL,(Default) = http://red.clientapps.yahoo.com/customize/...//www.yahoo.comR3 - URLSearchHook: (no name) - _{CFBFAE00-17A6-11D0-99CB-00C04FD64497} - (no file)O2 - BHO: Yahoo! Toolbar Helper - {02478D38-C3F9-4EFB-9B51-7695ECA05670} - C:\PROGRAM FILES\YAHOO!\COMPANION\INSTALLS\CPN1\YT.DLLO2 - BHO: CNavExtBho Class - {BDF3E430-B101-42AD-A544-FADC6B084872} - C:\Program Files\Norton AntiVirus\NavShExt.dllO2 - BHO: YahooTaggedBM Class - {65D886A2-7CA7-479B-BB95-14D1EFB7946A} - C:\PROGRAM FILES\YAHOO!\COMMON\YIETAGBM.DLLO2 - BHO: UberButton Class - {5BAB4B5B-68BC-4B02-94D6-2FC0DE4A7897} - C:\PROGRAM FILES\YAHOO!\COMMON\YIESRVC.DLLO2 - BHO: Starware - {CA356D79-679B-4b4c-8E49-5AF97014F4C1} - C:\PROGRAM FILES\STARWARE\BIN\STARWARE.DLLO2 - BHO: AcroIEHlprObj Class - {06849E9F-C8D7-4D59-B87D-784B7D6BE0B3} - C:\PROGRAM FILES\ADOBE\ACROBAT 6.0\READER\ACTIVEX\ACROIEHELPER.DLLO2 - BHO: (no name) - {53707962-6F74-2D53-2644-206D7942484F} - C:\PROGRA~1\SPYBOT~1\SDHELPER.DLLO2 - BHO: BHObj Class - {00000010-6F7D-442C-93E3-4A4827C2E4C8} - C:\WINDOWS\NEM220.DLLO2 - BHO: SABHO - {21B4ACC4-8874-4AEC-AEAC-F567A249B4D4} - C:\PROGRAM FILES\180SEARCHASSISTANT\SALMHOOK.DLLO3 - Toolbar: Norton AntiVirus - {42CDD1BF-3FFB-4238-8AD1-7859DF00B1D6} - C:\Program Files\Norton AntiVirus\NavShExt.dllO3 - Toolbar: @msdxmLC.dll,-1@1033,&Radio - {8E718888-423F-11D2-876E-00A0C9082467} - C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\MSDXM.OCXO3 - Toolbar: Starware - {D49E9D35-254C-4c6a-9D17-95018D228FF5} - C:\PROGRAM FILES\STARWARE\BIN\STARWARE.DLLO3 - Toolbar: Yahoo! Toolbar - {EF99BD32-C1FB-11D2-892F-0090271D4F88} - C:\PROGRAM FILES\YAHOO!\COMPANION\INSTALLS\CPN1\YT.DLLO4 - HKLM\..\Run: [scanRegistry] C:\WINDOWS\scanregw.exe /autorunO4 - HKLM\..\Run: [TaskMonitor] C:\WINDOWS\taskmon.exeO4 - HKLM\..\Run: [PCHealth] C:\WINDOWS\PCHealth\Support\PCHSchd.exe -sO4 - HKLM\..\Run: [systemTray] SysTray.ExeO4 - HKLM\..\Run: [LoadPowerProfile] Rundll32.exe powrprof.dll,LoadCurrentPwrSchemeO4 - HKLM\..\Run: [ccApp] C:\Program Files\Common Files\Symantec Shared\ccApp.exeO4 - HKLM\..\Run: [ccRegVfy] C:\Program Files\Common Files\Symantec Shared\ccRegVfy.exeO4 - HKLM\..\Run: [Advanced Tools Check] C:\PROGRA~1\NORTON~1\ADVTOOLS\ADVCHK.EXEO4 - HKLM\..\Run: [NPROTECT] C:\PROGRA~1\NORTON~1\ADVTOOLS\NPROTECT.EXEO4 - HKLM\..\Run: [WinampAgent] "C:\Program Files\Winamp3\winampa.exe"O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [sS1HelperStartUp] C:\PROGRAM FILES\SEASIDE SUNSET SCREENSAVER\SS1HELPER.EXE /partner SS1O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [AQ3HelperStartUp] C:\PROGRAM FILES\AQUATICA WATERWORLDS\AQ3HELPER.EXE /partner AQ3O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [HP Software Update] C:\Program Files\HP\HP Software Update\HPWuSchd2.exeO4 - HKLM\..\Run: [Media Gateway] C:\PROGRAM FILES\MEDIA GATEWAY\MEDIAGATEWAY.EXEO4 - HKLM\..\Run: [salm] c:\program files\180searchassistant\salm.exeO4 - HKLM\..\Run: [dmtgt] C:\WINDOWS\dmtgt.exeO4 - HKLM\..\Run: [internet Optimizer] "C:\Program Files\Internet Optimizer\optimize.exe"O4 - HKLM\..\RunServices: [LoadPowerProfile] Rundll32.exe powrprof.dll,LoadCurrentPwrSchemeO4 - HKLM\..\RunServices: [schedulingAgent] mstask.exeO4 - HKLM\..\RunServices: [*StateMgr] C:\WINDOWS\System\Restore\StateMgr.exeO4 - HKLM\..\RunServices: [Machine Debug Manager] C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\MDM.EXEO4 - HKLM\..\RunServices: [ccEvtMgr] C:\Program Files\Common Files\Symantec Shared\ccEvtMgr.exeO4 - HKLM\..\RunServices: [NPROTECT] C:\PROGRA~1\NORTON~1\ADVTOOLS\NPROTECT.EXEO4 - HKLM\..\RunServices: [scriptBlocking] "C:\Program Files\Common Files\Symantec Shared\Script Blocking\SBServ.exe" -regO4 - HKLM\..\RunServices: [stillImageMonitor] C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\STIMON.EXEO4 - HKCU\..\Run: [Taskbar Display Controls] RunDLL deskcp16.dll,QUICKRES_RUNDLLENTRYO4 - HKCU\..\Run: [Yahoo! Pager] C:\Program Files\Yahoo!\Messenger\ypager.exe -quietO4 - Startup: Microsoft Office.lnk = C:\Program Files\Microsoft Office\Office\OSA9.EXEO4 - Startup: WinZip Quick Pick.lnk = C:\Program Files\WinZip\WZQKPICK.EXEO4 - Startup: HP Digital Imaging Monitor.lnk = C:\Program Files\HP\Digital Imaging\bin\hpqtra08.exeO4 - Startup: HP Image Zone Fast Start.lnk = C:\Program Files\HP\Digital Imaging\bin\hpqthb08.exeO8 - Extra context menu item: &Yahoo! Search - file:///C:\Program Files\Yahoo!\Common/ycsrch.htmO8 - Extra context menu item: Yahoo! &Dictionary - file:///C:\Program Files\Yahoo!\Common/ycdict.htmO8 - Extra context menu item: Yahoo! &Maps - file:///C:\Program Files\Yahoo!\Common/ycmap.htmO8 - Extra context menu item: Yahoo! &SMS - file:///C:\Program Files\Yahoo!\Common/ycsms.htmO8 - Extra context menu item: &Search - http://bar.mywebsearch.com/menusearch.html?p=ZNxmk812YYMYO9 - Extra button: Related - {c95fe080-8f5d-11d2-a20b-00aa003c157a} - C:\WINDOWS\web\related.htmO9 - Extra 'Tools' menuitem: Show &Related Links - {c95fe080-8f5d-11d2-a20b-00aa003c157a} - C:\WINDOWS\web\related.htmO9 - Extra button: Messenger - {FB5F1910-F110-11d2-BB9E-00C04F795683} - C:\PROGRA~1\MESSEN~1\MSMSGS.EXEO9 - Extra 'Tools' menuitem: MSN Messenger Service - {FB5F1910-F110-11d2-BB9E-00C04F795683} - C:\PROGRA~1\MESSEN~1\MSMSGS.EXEO9 - Extra button: Yahoo! Services - {5BAB4B5B-68BC-4B02-94D6-2FC0DE4A7897} - C:\PROGRAM FILES\YAHOO!\COMMON\YIESRVC.DLLO16 - DPF: {DF780F87-FF2B-4DF8-92D0-73DB16A1543A} (PopCapLoader Object) - http://download.games.yahoo.com/games/web_...aploader_v6.cabO16 - DPF: {1D4DB7D2-6EC9-47A3-BD87-1E41684E07BB} - http://ak.imgfarm.com/images/nocache/funwe...up1.0.0.8-2.cabO16 - DPF: {88D758A3-D33B-45FD-91E3-67749B4057FA} (Sinstaller Class) - http://dm.screensavers.com/dm/installers/si/1/sinstaller.cabO16 - DPF: {2E28242B-A689-11D4-80F2-0040266CBB8D} (KXHCM10 Control) - http://211.18.192.148/kxhcm10.ocxO16 - DPF: {15AD6789-CDB4-47E1-A9DA-992EE8E6BAD6} - http://static.windupdates.com/cab/MediaAcc...bridge-c411.cabO16 - DPF: {99410CDE-6F16-42ce-9D49-3807F78F0287} (ClientInstaller Class) - http://www.180searchassistant.com/180saax.cabThanks a lot C-Fu -M.E.G.A- Edited September 5, 2005 by mega Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joetbg_x 0 Report post Posted September 5, 2005 log HijackThis biasanya lebih panjang drp apa yg ko paste tu.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
